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	<title>Comments for A Motley Vision</title>
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	<link>http://www.motleyvision.org</link>
	<description>Mormon Arts and Culture</description>
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		<title>Comment on Sunday Lit Crit Sermon: Levi Edgar Young&#8217;s Literary Acquaintances by Katya</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2012/sunday-lit-crit-sermon-levi-edgar-youngs-literary-acquaintances/comment-page-1/#comment-46518</link>
		<dc:creator>Katya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2012 13:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=7307#comment-46518</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;While Zion is in the world and not a city state with an insular encircling social reality, artists (notably writers) are more or less free to explore this issue from various angles. . . . But when the walls go up, the trumpet calls and the gates clank down . . .&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You seem to be very taken with this idea of an isolationist society. (Every conversation you&#039;ve had on this site comes back to it.) Why is it such a focus for you, do you think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>While Zion is in the world and not a city state with an insular encircling social reality, artists (notably writers) are more or less free to explore this issue from various angles. . . . But when the walls go up, the trumpet calls and the gates clank down . . .</p></blockquote>
<p>You seem to be very taken with this idea of an isolationist society. (Every conversation you&#8217;ve had on this site comes back to it.) Why is it such a focus for you, do you think?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Sunday Lit Crit Sermon: Levi Edgar Young&#8217;s Literary Acquaintances by Mark Penny</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2012/sunday-lit-crit-sermon-levi-edgar-youngs-literary-acquaintances/comment-page-1/#comment-46514</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Penny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2012 02:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=7307#comment-46514</guid>
		<description>This site really needs some sort of forum app where discussion started under one post can be conducted as a neatly packaged entity. Meanwhile, to carry on from the thread under the previous SLCS (and germane to the discussion starting under this one), the Art-Authority conflict I keep obsessing about is, in part at least, a struggle to control the narrative. Struggles over narrative happen all the time and in all spheres. I see it when I ask my sons why one of them is crying or who didn&#039;t put away the bath things or whether they&#039;ve brushed their teeth. I see it when my wife talks about the social brush fires that flare up (and sometimes spread) at church. I see it in office politics. Heck, I see it as the different members of my family attempt to make sense of our common past.

Sometimes divergent narratives can co-exist. Sometimes divergence becomes dissent and is disruptive to an agenda. The issue then becomes whether divergence is tolerable.

I&#039;m not an expert, but it seems to me that the dialogue and concomitant monologues about same-sex attraction are a good example. Here we have an individual predilection with an associated potential social practice. At first, the official position (or narrative) was that it either didn&#039;t exist or was simply a form of temptation which could be as easily suppressed as the urge to smoke or steal. Spirits were male or female, not both or neither or something else. Use made of the body should reflect that fact. Unfortunately, from the official perspective, the larger social reality (or narrative) did not support that view, much as it does not support the necessity or longevity of marriage, and local reality began to echo the encircling social one, as it did with the weakening support of marriage. Evidence of a genetic cause to same-sex attraction informed (or forced, depending on your narrative) a revision of the condition&#039;s earthly origin tale (okay, it may be built-in to the body and be harder to deal with than a taste for tobacco) without a revision of the spiritual narrative (spirits are male or female), with the result that you can now be gay, but you still can&#039;t act like it. The reactive narrative on the divergent side is that God personally (Himself and to the divergent member) approves of homosexual love, at least when the attraction is built-in and the love is real.

While Zion is in the world and not a city state with an insular encircling social reality, artists (notably writers) are more or less free to explore this issue from various angles. At this point,I suspect there is greater danger of censure from the encircling social reality than from the internal one. But when the walls go up, the trumpet calls and the gates clank down, musing on the reality of same-sex attraction and the fairness of controlling and negatively sanctioning it will become patently and blatantly subversive.

Mind you, with the current encircling social reality removed, a lot of pressing issues won&#039;t press us anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This site really needs some sort of forum app where discussion started under one post can be conducted as a neatly packaged entity. Meanwhile, to carry on from the thread under the previous SLCS (and germane to the discussion starting under this one), the Art-Authority conflict I keep obsessing about is, in part at least, a struggle to control the narrative. Struggles over narrative happen all the time and in all spheres. I see it when I ask my sons why one of them is crying or who didn&#8217;t put away the bath things or whether they&#8217;ve brushed their teeth. I see it when my wife talks about the social brush fires that flare up (and sometimes spread) at church. I see it in office politics. Heck, I see it as the different members of my family attempt to make sense of our common past.</p>
<p>Sometimes divergent narratives can co-exist. Sometimes divergence becomes dissent and is disruptive to an agenda. The issue then becomes whether divergence is tolerable.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not an expert, but it seems to me that the dialogue and concomitant monologues about same-sex attraction are a good example. Here we have an individual predilection with an associated potential social practice. At first, the official position (or narrative) was that it either didn&#8217;t exist or was simply a form of temptation which could be as easily suppressed as the urge to smoke or steal. Spirits were male or female, not both or neither or something else. Use made of the body should reflect that fact. Unfortunately, from the official perspective, the larger social reality (or narrative) did not support that view, much as it does not support the necessity or longevity of marriage, and local reality began to echo the encircling social one, as it did with the weakening support of marriage. Evidence of a genetic cause to same-sex attraction informed (or forced, depending on your narrative) a revision of the condition&#8217;s earthly origin tale (okay, it may be built-in to the body and be harder to deal with than a taste for tobacco) without a revision of the spiritual narrative (spirits are male or female), with the result that you can now be gay, but you still can&#8217;t act like it. The reactive narrative on the divergent side is that God personally (Himself and to the divergent member) approves of homosexual love, at least when the attraction is built-in and the love is real.</p>
<p>While Zion is in the world and not a city state with an insular encircling social reality, artists (notably writers) are more or less free to explore this issue from various angles. At this point,I suspect there is greater danger of censure from the encircling social reality than from the internal one. But when the walls go up, the trumpet calls and the gates clank down, musing on the reality of same-sex attraction and the fairness of controlling and negatively sanctioning it will become patently and blatantly subversive.</p>
<p>Mind you, with the current encircling social reality removed, a lot of pressing issues won&#8217;t press us anymore.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Sunday Lit Crit Sermon: Levi Edgar Young&#8217;s Literary Acquaintances by Mahonri Stewart</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2012/sunday-lit-crit-sermon-levi-edgar-youngs-literary-acquaintances/comment-page-1/#comment-46508</link>
		<dc:creator>Mahonri Stewart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 16:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=7307#comment-46508</guid>
		<description>It does sound, though, that Eidlitz could have been considered a &quot;seeker&quot; before his conversion to Hinduism. The fact that he came to Utah as part of his pilgrimage tell us something at least, and that he was taking Mormonism seriously enough to travel here on a friend&#039;s suggestion...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It does sound, though, that Eidlitz could have been considered a &#8220;seeker&#8221; before his conversion to Hinduism. The fact that he came to Utah as part of his pilgrimage tell us something at least, and that he was taking Mormonism seriously enough to travel here on a friend&#8217;s suggestion&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Sunday Lit Crit Sermon: Levi Edgar Young&#8217;s Literary Acquaintances by Mark Penny</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2012/sunday-lit-crit-sermon-levi-edgar-youngs-literary-acquaintances/comment-page-1/#comment-46506</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Penny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 13:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=7307#comment-46506</guid>
		<description>That proponents are biased reporters?

I don&#039;t mean that snidely, by the way, but when a sanctioned representative or confirmed supporter of anything tells me someone else was impressed by the thing represented or supported, I bring out the salt.

And you bring up an important point: other religions impress people (and convert them), too. In fact, people have testimonies of other religions (and the gods they serve), also. Whether or not we have the corner on some sort of truth, testimonies don&#039;t prove a thing except to those who gain them and those who are willing to be convinced by them. It&#039;s nice when people think we&#039;re nice, but it doesn&#039;t make us God&#039;s people. That&#039;s between us (collectively and individually) and God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That proponents are biased reporters?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean that snidely, by the way, but when a sanctioned representative or confirmed supporter of anything tells me someone else was impressed by the thing represented or supported, I bring out the salt.</p>
<p>And you bring up an important point: other religions impress people (and convert them), too. In fact, people have testimonies of other religions (and the gods they serve), also. Whether or not we have the corner on some sort of truth, testimonies don&#8217;t prove a thing except to those who gain them and those who are willing to be convinced by them. It&#8217;s nice when people think we&#8217;re nice, but it doesn&#8217;t make us God&#8217;s people. That&#8217;s between us (collectively and individually) and God.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Eugene England and Richard Dutcher in Stephen Carter&#8217;s _What of the Night?_ by Sarah Dunster</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2012/eugene-england-and-richard-dutcher-in-stephen-carters-_what-of-the-night_/comment-page-1/#comment-46505</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Dunster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 13:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=7288#comment-46505</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I was cut off by androids. In particular his theme of conflict...how any member with a real testimony, who has examined deeply the history and doctrines of the church and applied them in times of real difficulty learns to live with conflict, woth not-immediately-answered questions. This concept of conflict may jyst have saved my testimony, and likely strengthened it seventy times seven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I was cut off by androids. In particular his theme of conflict&#8230;how any member with a real testimony, who has examined deeply the history and doctrines of the church and applied them in times of real difficulty learns to live with conflict, woth not-immediately-answered questions. This concept of conflict may jyst have saved my testimony, and likely strengthened it seventy times seven.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Eugene England and Richard Dutcher in Stephen Carter&#8217;s _What of the Night?_ by Sarah Dunster</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2012/eugene-england-and-richard-dutcher-in-stephen-carters-_what-of-the-night_/comment-page-1/#comment-46504</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Dunster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 13:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=7288#comment-46504</guid>
		<description>I did not know that Br. England had those struggles. Reading this, I felt sad that I didn&#039;t know of them. My husband was an English major who graduted maybe the year roght before or right after England left BYU and went over to UVSC (or UVU, as it&#039;s called now.) And I was not ever an English major, but when I was taking unecessary extra English classes for fun toward.the end of my bachelors&#039; degree, he was already gone. And then when Jeff and I joined his ward as a young married couple, he had already passed (though I got to hang out with Charlotte a few times.) 
When I was going through some crap, a friend gave me one of his books of essays. In particular one tited &quot;why the church is as true as the gospel&quot; provided some real insight I needed at the time. In particular the idea he</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did not know that Br. England had those struggles. Reading this, I felt sad that I didn&#8217;t know of them. My husband was an English major who graduted maybe the year roght before or right after England left BYU and went over to UVSC (or UVU, as it&#8217;s called now.) And I was not ever an English major, but when I was taking unecessary extra English classes for fun toward.the end of my bachelors&#8217; degree, he was already gone. And then when Jeff and I joined his ward as a young married couple, he had already passed (though I got to hang out with Charlotte a few times.)<br />
When I was going through some crap, a friend gave me one of his books of essays. In particular one tited &#8220;why the church is as true as the gospel&#8221; provided some real insight I needed at the time. In particular the idea he</p>
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		<title>Comment on Review: Stephen Carter&#8217;s _What of the Night?_ is a Lonely, Lovely Journey by Luisa Perkins</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2012/review-stephen-carters-_what-of-the-night_-is-a-lonely-lovely-journey/comment-page-1/#comment-46496</link>
		<dc:creator>Luisa Perkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2012 16:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=7280#comment-46496</guid>
		<description>I have this on my Kindle and am looking forward to reading it. Stephen was a terrific editor; I expect his writing will be similarly stellar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have this on my Kindle and am looking forward to reading it. Stephen was a terrific editor; I expect his writing will be similarly stellar.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Eugene England and Richard Dutcher in Stephen Carter&#8217;s _What of the Night?_ by Mahonri Stewart</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2012/eugene-england-and-richard-dutcher-in-stephen-carters-_what-of-the-night_/comment-page-1/#comment-46488</link>
		<dc:creator>Mahonri Stewart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2012 06:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=7288#comment-46488</guid>
		<description>Ryan, I tried pretty hard not to undervalue Dutcher in the article. Most of my comments had much more to do with the narrative we create about Dutcher than Dutcher himself. As I said, I value Dutcher&#039;s contributions, love his movies, and think he is a good man. 

His journey is his own, and I have no place in his true narrative with God, so what I think of it hardly matters. But I do feel like I must stick to my own lessons learned. Although I need to always be adapting and learning and changing based on my ever fluctuating experiences, still there&#039;s a time you&#039;ve got to know what you really believe and honor that. Dutcher did that for himself, just as I&#039;m trying to do in this essay as well. And part of my beliefs is that, although Dutcher has many other virtues, he&#039;s wrong about Joseph Smith. That&#039;s MY journey, for Joseph Smith is one of the aspects of the Gospel I can point to with personal surety... that, as well as Jesus and the Christian story of the Gospels. Those are two aspects of Mormonism I&#039;m fervent about, so Dutcher and I, I&#039;m afraid, will just have to not see eye to eye on those issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan, I tried pretty hard not to undervalue Dutcher in the article. Most of my comments had much more to do with the narrative we create about Dutcher than Dutcher himself. As I said, I value Dutcher&#8217;s contributions, love his movies, and think he is a good man. </p>
<p>His journey is his own, and I have no place in his true narrative with God, so what I think of it hardly matters. But I do feel like I must stick to my own lessons learned. Although I need to always be adapting and learning and changing based on my ever fluctuating experiences, still there&#8217;s a time you&#8217;ve got to know what you really believe and honor that. Dutcher did that for himself, just as I&#8217;m trying to do in this essay as well. And part of my beliefs is that, although Dutcher has many other virtues, he&#8217;s wrong about Joseph Smith. That&#8217;s MY journey, for Joseph Smith is one of the aspects of the Gospel I can point to with personal surety&#8230; that, as well as Jesus and the Christian story of the Gospels. Those are two aspects of Mormonism I&#8217;m fervent about, so Dutcher and I, I&#8217;m afraid, will just have to not see eye to eye on those issues.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Eugene England and Richard Dutcher in Stephen Carter&#8217;s _What of the Night?_ by Mark Penny</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2012/eugene-england-and-richard-dutcher-in-stephen-carters-_what-of-the-night_/comment-page-1/#comment-46487</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Penny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2012 06:02:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=7288#comment-46487</guid>
		<description>It seems to me, sitting in this stuffy little classroom during a break from studying SAT questions with a student from a Taiwanese international school, that the conflicts and dramatic decisions on both sides of the art and authority divide occur when people take the business personally. Disagreeing with me is disagreeing with God. Rejecting me is rejecting art. Does humility come in supplements? Can we add it to the water?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me, sitting in this stuffy little classroom during a break from studying SAT questions with a student from a Taiwanese international school, that the conflicts and dramatic decisions on both sides of the art and authority divide occur when people take the business personally. Disagreeing with me is disagreeing with God. Rejecting me is rejecting art. Does humility come in supplements? Can we add it to the water?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Eugene England and Richard Dutcher in Stephen Carter&#8217;s _What of the Night?_ by Mark Penny</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2012/eugene-england-and-richard-dutcher-in-stephen-carters-_what-of-the-night_/comment-page-1/#comment-46486</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Penny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2012 05:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=7288#comment-46486</guid>
		<description>I always thought farmers and mechanics had the most important jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always thought farmers and mechanics had the most important jobs.</p>
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