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	<title>Comments on: James Wood on the &#8220;nonsense written&#8221; about characters in fiction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/</link>
	<description>Mormon Arts and Culture</description>
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		<title>By: William Morris</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-33042</link>
		<dc:creator>William Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=488#comment-33042</guid>
		<description>The technology exists, but I am not making it available until AMV rises to the level of FranklinCovey or Nu Skin. The good news is that all of you are in on the ground floor and so will be the first invited to join the collective mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The technology exists, but I am not making it available until AMV rises to the level of FranklinCovey or Nu Skin. The good news is that all of you are in on the ground floor and so will be the first invited to join the collective mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-33041</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=488#comment-33041</guid>
		<description>An AMV mind meld--where do I sign up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An AMV mind meld&#8211;where do I sign up?</p>
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		<title>By: MoJo</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-33040</link>
		<dc:creator>MoJo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=488#comment-33040</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;(Sometimes I wish we could just communicate beyond the challenge and burden of language and that I knew more of You–as in AMV commenters–than what I can gather through the printed word.)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

We could try a Vulcan mind meld.

As for language, I&#039;ve always thought there must be a way to calculate (mathematically) rhythm and function (you know, like music theory is mathematical), but I have to use a calculator to add 0+0, so I&#039;m not going there.  :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>(Sometimes I wish we could just communicate beyond the challenge and burden of language and that I knew more of You–as in AMV commenters–than what I can gather through the printed word.)</p></blockquote>
<p>We could try a Vulcan mind meld.</p>
<p>As for language, I&#8217;ve always thought there must be a way to calculate (mathematically) rhythm and function (you know, like music theory is mathematical), but I have to use a calculator to add 0+0, so I&#8217;m not going there.  :D</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-33039</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=488#comment-33039</guid>
		<description>Okay, okay. Uncle! I see where you&#039;re coming from. (Sometimes I wish we could just communicate beyond the challenge and burden of language and that I knew more of You--as in AMV commenters--than what I can gather through the printed word.) I was simply trying to elaborate on ET&#039;s comment that he&#039;s read a great many books but very few great endings and that the endings weren&#039;t great because the equation adding up to a story&#039;s authenticity or believability didn&#039;t quite work out. Perhaps since literature is a more subjective domain than math, an equation isn&#039;t the best analogy. But I like the idea of it.

Now if only I could find that damn novel to remind myself of why it didn&#039;t work for me...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, okay. Uncle! I see where you&#8217;re coming from. (Sometimes I wish we could just communicate beyond the challenge and burden of language and that I knew more of You&#8211;as in AMV commenters&#8211;than what I can gather through the printed word.) I was simply trying to elaborate on ET&#8217;s comment that he&#8217;s read a great many books but very few great endings and that the endings weren&#8217;t great because the equation adding up to a story&#8217;s authenticity or believability didn&#8217;t quite work out. Perhaps since literature is a more subjective domain than math, an equation isn&#8217;t the best analogy. But I like the idea of it.</p>
<p>Now if only I could find that damn novel to remind myself of why it didn&#8217;t work for me&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: MoJo</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-33038</link>
		<dc:creator>MoJo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=488#comment-33038</guid>
		<description>William, I like &quot;sediment.&quot;  That truly describes where I am as a reader.  There are two authors in genre romance (both NYT bestsellers) who seem to be beloved above all others and...I don&#039;t get the love and I am apparently a minority of 1 in both instances.

&lt;blockquote&gt;[the author] should allow them to act in authentically human ways, should surround them with essentially human realities (situations, challenges, weaknesses, etc.) and allow them to respond to those realities in essentially human ways.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think what I&#039;m trying to say is that your &quot;essentially human&quot; is not the author&#039;s &quot;essentially human.&quot; Novel X worked for both the editor who acquired it and, as you note, your professor, so the author&#039;s &quot;essentially human&quot; worked for them. They bought the lie.

&lt;i&gt;Your&lt;/i&gt; words &quot;real&quot; and &quot;human&quot; and &quot;authentic&quot; are loaded with connotations I can&#039;t begin to assess because they are different from &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; words &quot;real&quot; and &quot;human&quot; and &quot;authentic.&quot;  Since I don&#039;t know what &lt;i&gt;your&lt;/i&gt; words mean, I can&#039;t understand where you&#039;re coming from.  [And obviously, in this particular instance, I can&#039;t know unless I read Novel X (which I&#039;m not asking for, LOL!) and we have a discussion.]

Someone said of my work, &quot;Nobody I know talks like that.&quot;  That&#039;s fair.  What would not be fair is to say, &quot;Nobody I know talks like that, therefore your work isn&#039;t authentic.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William, I like &#8220;sediment.&#8221;  That truly describes where I am as a reader.  There are two authors in genre romance (both NYT bestsellers) who seem to be beloved above all others and&#8230;I don&#8217;t get the love and I am apparently a minority of 1 in both instances.</p>
<blockquote><p>[the author] should allow them to act in authentically human ways, should surround them with essentially human realities (situations, challenges, weaknesses, etc.) and allow them to respond to those realities in essentially human ways.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think what I&#8217;m trying to say is that your &#8220;essentially human&#8221; is not the author&#8217;s &#8220;essentially human.&#8221; Novel X worked for both the editor who acquired it and, as you note, your professor, so the author&#8217;s &#8220;essentially human&#8221; worked for them. They bought the lie.</p>
<p><i>Your</i> words &#8220;real&#8221; and &#8220;human&#8221; and &#8220;authentic&#8221; are loaded with connotations I can&#8217;t begin to assess because they are different from <i>my</i> words &#8220;real&#8221; and &#8220;human&#8221; and &#8220;authentic.&#8221;  Since I don&#8217;t know what <i>your</i> words mean, I can&#8217;t understand where you&#8217;re coming from.  [And obviously, in this particular instance, I can't know unless I read Novel X (which I'm not asking for, LOL!) and we have a discussion.]</p>
<p>Someone said of my work, &#8220;Nobody I know talks like that.&#8221;  That&#8217;s fair.  What would not be fair is to say, &#8220;Nobody I know talks like that, therefore your work isn&#8217;t authentic.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-33037</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=488#comment-33037</guid>
		<description>(Add this to my thought:) To have a character end their story by suddenly doing something out of character and out of line with the story&#039;s progression doesn&#039;t fly with me because, to return to ET&#039;s analogy, the equation just doesn&#039;t add up. If a character is supposed to be human and humans don&#039;t just do things out of character, unless motivated by some rational or irrational idea/force, then show me or at least hint at the reasoning. Don&#039;t lead me to one conclusion then suddenly jump ship just because you want to surprise me. Show me why you jumped ship, even if it takes me a minute to figure it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Add this to my thought:) To have a character end their story by suddenly doing something out of character and out of line with the story&#8217;s progression doesn&#8217;t fly with me because, to return to ET&#8217;s analogy, the equation just doesn&#8217;t add up. If a character is supposed to be human and humans don&#8217;t just do things out of character, unless motivated by some rational or irrational idea/force, then show me or at least hint at the reasoning. Don&#8217;t lead me to one conclusion then suddenly jump ship just because you want to surprise me. Show me why you jumped ship, even if it takes me a minute to figure it out.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-33036</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=488#comment-33036</guid>
		<description>No need to apologize. I simply took your comment as an extension of what I&#039;d said in my final sentence.

Having said that, what I meant (at least what I think I meant) was that the change in this author&#039;s character didn&#039;t seem plausible, at least to me, though it may work for someone else. (Obviously the professor thought it worked.) Not having the book in front of me (I can&#039;t even find it on my bookshelves), I can&#039;t lay out a more definitive reading as to why it didn&#039;t seem authentic.

As for the creation of human reality and human response in fiction, I intended that to mean, according to my reading of the failures of X novel, that if an author is dealing with human characters (even, perhaps, un-human characters) that they should allow them to act in authentically human ways, should surround them with essentially human realities (situations, challenges, weaknesses, etc.) and allow them to respond to those realities in essentially human ways.

(If that makes any more sense...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No need to apologize. I simply took your comment as an extension of what I&#8217;d said in my final sentence.</p>
<p>Having said that, what I meant (at least what I think I meant) was that the change in this author&#8217;s character didn&#8217;t seem plausible, at least to me, though it may work for someone else. (Obviously the professor thought it worked.) Not having the book in front of me (I can&#8217;t even find it on my bookshelves), I can&#8217;t lay out a more definitive reading as to why it didn&#8217;t seem authentic.</p>
<p>As for the creation of human reality and human response in fiction, I intended that to mean, according to my reading of the failures of X novel, that if an author is dealing with human characters (even, perhaps, un-human characters) that they should allow them to act in authentically human ways, should surround them with essentially human realities (situations, challenges, weaknesses, etc.) and allow them to respond to those realities in essentially human ways.</p>
<p>(If that makes any more sense&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: William Morris</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-33035</link>
		<dc:creator>William Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=488#comment-33035</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s funny that you should mention endings, ET. One of the posts I&#039;m working on is the problem with endings in Mormon novels. 

---
Regarding reader baggage -- I prefer to use the term sediment. We all have different layerings and types of sediment and when the narrative washes over us, certain things go in to different grooves and interact differently with the various sands, gravels, rocks and boulders of our psyche. And some of these narrative leave additional deposits. Some more than others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s funny that you should mention endings, ET. One of the posts I&#8217;m working on is the problem with endings in Mormon novels. </p>
<p>&#8212;<br />
Regarding reader baggage &#8212; I prefer to use the term sediment. We all have different layerings and types of sediment and when the narrative washes over us, certain things go in to different grooves and interact differently with the various sands, gravels, rocks and boulders of our psyche. And some of these narrative leave additional deposits. Some more than others.</p>
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		<title>By: MoJo</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-33034</link>
		<dc:creator>MoJo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=488#comment-33034</guid>
		<description>Tyler, I understood you to originally say that you didn&#039;t buy X author&#039;s lie:

&lt;blockquote&gt;the character’s journey didn’t make sense in that I didn’t see him change as much as the author assumed he had&lt;/blockquote&gt;

which is a fair assessment.  You then said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I guess that goes to show, at least for me, the need for authors to create human reality and human response in their fictive worlds.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So proportions of truth/lies in storytelling aside, I took you to mean that because X author didn&#039;t work for you, that it didn&#039;t work at all.  That was my objection.

If that&#039;s not what you meant, then I humbly apologize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tyler, I understood you to originally say that you didn&#8217;t buy X author&#8217;s lie:</p>
<blockquote><p>the character’s journey didn’t make sense in that I didn’t see him change as much as the author assumed he had</p></blockquote>
<p>which is a fair assessment.  You then said:</p>
<blockquote><p>I guess that goes to show, at least for me, the need for authors to create human reality and human response in their fictive worlds.</p></blockquote>
<p>So proportions of truth/lies in storytelling aside, I took you to mean that because X author didn&#8217;t work for you, that it didn&#8217;t work at all.  That was my objection.</p>
<p>If that&#8217;s not what you meant, then I humbly apologize.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2008/james-wood-on-the-nonsense-written-about-characters-in-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-33033</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 15:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=488#comment-33033</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Unless the words “this really happened and all names have been changed so I won’t get sued” are included somewhere in the front matter, the story is a lie because &lt;i&gt;it did not happen&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, but how much truth is there really to the events related in a &quot;true&quot; story? As you say, we all carry our own reader baggage and our particular &quot;reading&quot; of any event will be bogged down by that baggage. Hence, no true story can be considered objectively true because it will be told with the author&#039;s personal slant. Neither can a true story be read as truthfully as it was written because it will be read through reader&#039;s personal lens.

In a sense, then, when we read any story, whether billeted as fiction or non-fiction, we&#039;re simply buying a lie, though some lies are merely more truthful than others.

(Phew! Lots of truths and lies in there...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Unless the words “this really happened and all names have been changed so I won’t get sued” are included somewhere in the front matter, the story is a lie because <i>it did not happen</i>.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, but how much truth is there really to the events related in a &#8220;true&#8221; story? As you say, we all carry our own reader baggage and our particular &#8220;reading&#8221; of any event will be bogged down by that baggage. Hence, no true story can be considered objectively true because it will be told with the author&#8217;s personal slant. Neither can a true story be read as truthfully as it was written because it will be read through reader&#8217;s personal lens.</p>
<p>In a sense, then, when we read any story, whether billeted as fiction or non-fiction, we&#8217;re simply buying a lie, though some lies are merely more truthful than others.</p>
<p>(Phew! Lots of truths and lies in there&#8230;)</p>
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