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	<title>Comments on: Guest post: Eugene Woodbury on humor and the literary novel</title>
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	<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/</link>
	<description>Mormon Arts and Culture</description>
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		<title>By: Uprooted</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/comment-page-1/#comment-22003</link>
		<dc:creator>Uprooted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 02:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=352#comment-22003</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed the essay and followup comments.  I have found that some of my most favorite, profound moments of personal revelation have involved humor.  The Lord definitely doesn&#039;t want me to take myself too seriously.

I highly recommend Enzio Busche&#039;s autobiographical book Yearning for the Living God.  He tells a wonderful story of casting an evil spirit out of a missionary; I hate to even summarize it because it needs to be told in his words.  But he makes the point that the adversary does not have a sense of humor.

There are parts of the scriptures that definitely make me laugh, although like someone said I don&#039;t know if I think the writers meant for it to be funny.  One that comes to mind was Jeremiah, who was approached by a group of those left in Jerusalem after many had been taken captive.  IIRC, they wanted Jeremiah to ask the Lord what they should do.  He said, no, you won&#039;t listen.  They said, &quot;please, please, we promise we&#039;ll do whatever you say!&quot;  So he does, and comes back and tells them &quot;whatever you do, don&#039;t go to Egypt or you&#039;ll be killed.&quot;  &quot;WHAT?&quot;  they respond.  &quot;God did not tell you that!&quot;  And they go to Egypt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed the essay and followup comments.  I have found that some of my most favorite, profound moments of personal revelation have involved humor.  The Lord definitely doesn&#8217;t want me to take myself too seriously.</p>
<p>I highly recommend Enzio Busche&#8217;s autobiographical book Yearning for the Living God.  He tells a wonderful story of casting an evil spirit out of a missionary; I hate to even summarize it because it needs to be told in his words.  But he makes the point that the adversary does not have a sense of humor.</p>
<p>There are parts of the scriptures that definitely make me laugh, although like someone said I don&#8217;t know if I think the writers meant for it to be funny.  One that comes to mind was Jeremiah, who was approached by a group of those left in Jerusalem after many had been taken captive.  IIRC, they wanted Jeremiah to ask the Lord what they should do.  He said, no, you won&#8217;t listen.  They said, &#8220;please, please, we promise we&#8217;ll do whatever you say!&#8221;  So he does, and comes back and tells them &#8220;whatever you do, don&#8217;t go to Egypt or you&#8217;ll be killed.&#8221;  &#8220;WHAT?&#8221;  they respond.  &#8220;God did not tell you that!&#8221;  And they go to Egypt.</p>
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		<title>By: pooka</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/comment-page-1/#comment-20047</link>
		<dc:creator>pooka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=352#comment-20047</guid>
		<description>I also thought it was funny when Abinadi says something to the effect of &quot;you will not have power to slay me until I&#039;ve said my peace&quot;.  He then proceeds to talk for like 3 hours.  There is a lot of humor in the Book of Mormon.  Especially describing exploits during the wars.

&quot;But behold, they were Nephites.&quot;  There was some kind of disguise intrigue.  Throwing down the rocks at their will and pleasure.  Well, I can&#039;t do it, but trust me, it&#039;s screamingly funny.

Or the bit with the fortified wine, and the guards want to skim a bit of it, and the pranksters say &quot;no, this is for a special occasion&quot; but that only made them more desirous...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also thought it was funny when Abinadi says something to the effect of &#8220;you will not have power to slay me until I&#8217;ve said my peace&#8221;.  He then proceeds to talk for like 3 hours.  There is a lot of humor in the Book of Mormon.  Especially describing exploits during the wars.</p>
<p>&#8220;But behold, they were Nephites.&#8221;  There was some kind of disguise intrigue.  Throwing down the rocks at their will and pleasure.  Well, I can&#8217;t do it, but trust me, it&#8217;s screamingly funny.</p>
<p>Or the bit with the fortified wine, and the guards want to skim a bit of it, and the pranksters say &#8220;no, this is for a special occasion&#8221; but that only made them more desirous&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: William Morris</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/comment-page-1/#comment-19049</link>
		<dc:creator>William Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=352#comment-19049</guid>
		<description>I loved the humor in Jonathan Strange &amp; Mr. Norrell. 

And I agree with your assessment of Everybody Loves Raymond. I&#039;m trying to figure out why the relationship humor there is skin-crawling, but Dr. Cox&#039;s relationship with his wife (and others) in Scrubs doesn&#039;t bother me -- and is often funny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I loved the humor in Jonathan Strange &amp; Mr. Norrell. </p>
<p>And I agree with your assessment of Everybody Loves Raymond. I&#8217;m trying to figure out why the relationship humor there is skin-crawling, but Dr. Cox&#8217;s relationship with his wife (and others) in Scrubs doesn&#8217;t bother me &#8212; and is often funny.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Woodbury</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/comment-page-1/#comment-18914</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Woodbury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 03:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=352#comment-18914</guid>
		<description>I agree that humor is difficult. I could never get into &quot;Everybody Loves Raymond&quot; because the jokes seemed so MEAN: skin-crawling mean. In contrast, I don&#039;t really know why House, for example, doesn&#039;t bother me. It may be because the dialog is so rapid. It may also be because House&#039;s behavior is intrinsic to House. *He* doesn&#039;t necessarily expect the audience to laugh, even if the writers do.

I do think the kind of quick-witted dialog found in old black &amp; white movies has come back to television. I&#039;m not sure about novels. It is much harder to get that sort of thing to work in a novel without coming off as coy and cloying. I think the best kind of novel humor is the kind of humor found in Jonathan Strange &amp; Mr. Norrell where the humor is very, very, very dry. But then one must be Jane Austen in order to write it. (Which could explain the billions of books out there which re-use her plots.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that humor is difficult. I could never get into &#8220;Everybody Loves Raymond&#8221; because the jokes seemed so MEAN: skin-crawling mean. In contrast, I don&#8217;t really know why House, for example, doesn&#8217;t bother me. It may be because the dialog is so rapid. It may also be because House&#8217;s behavior is intrinsic to House. *He* doesn&#8217;t necessarily expect the audience to laugh, even if the writers do.</p>
<p>I do think the kind of quick-witted dialog found in old black &amp; white movies has come back to television. I&#8217;m not sure about novels. It is much harder to get that sort of thing to work in a novel without coming off as coy and cloying. I think the best kind of novel humor is the kind of humor found in Jonathan Strange &amp; Mr. Norrell where the humor is very, very, very dry. But then one must be Jane Austen in order to write it. (Which could explain the billions of books out there which re-use her plots.)</p>
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		<title>By: Laura H. Craner</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/comment-page-1/#comment-18715</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura H. Craner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=352#comment-18715</guid>
		<description>I think humor can sometimes be a double-edged sword. Take all those cranky TV doctors for example. When was the last time Dr. Cox, or House for that matter, was able to make a joke that wasn&#039;t crude or didn&#039;t invovle making someone feel *truly* humiliated. And humor can be difficult in other ways too. Look at LDS comedy as it now stands. The closest things we have to wit are slapstick and cartoonish(calling them farcical actually seems too kind). I point this all out just to ask the question of how do you mitigate all that? How do you make a joke without appealing to the lowest common denominator and still be funny? How does funny work when you&#039;re not making fun of someone? I also think TV has the upper hand on comedy because it is a lot easier to be physically funny than mentally funny. Can you imagine how many sentences it would take to describe one of Dr. Cox&#039;s faces? I think comedy in novels is a bit of a different question than comedy in other forms of literature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think humor can sometimes be a double-edged sword. Take all those cranky TV doctors for example. When was the last time Dr. Cox, or House for that matter, was able to make a joke that wasn&#8217;t crude or didn&#8217;t invovle making someone feel *truly* humiliated. And humor can be difficult in other ways too. Look at LDS comedy as it now stands. The closest things we have to wit are slapstick and cartoonish(calling them farcical actually seems too kind). I point this all out just to ask the question of how do you mitigate all that? How do you make a joke without appealing to the lowest common denominator and still be funny? How does funny work when you&#8217;re not making fun of someone? I also think TV has the upper hand on comedy because it is a lot easier to be physically funny than mentally funny. Can you imagine how many sentences it would take to describe one of Dr. Cox&#8217;s faces? I think comedy in novels is a bit of a different question than comedy in other forms of literature.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Woodbury</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/comment-page-1/#comment-18714</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Woodbury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=352#comment-18714</guid>
		<description>One of my favorite humorous parts in the Old Testament is when Elijah is baiting the priests of Baal. Of course, being the Old Testament, the passage gets pretty violent towards the end, but the beginning part is hilarious. Elijah keeps saying things like, &quot;Maybe your god hasn&#039;t come yet cause he&#039;s chatting. Maybe he&#039;s sleeping. Maybe he went on a trip.&quot; You get the impression that, if it were a Greek story, Elijah would have gotten a lot more ribald. (And maybe he did and those parts were cut out!) 

It also explains why Jezebel got so mad. Sure, he killed her priests, but he TAUNTED them first. 

BTW, Elijah&#039;s prodigy is Elisha who gets bears to maul the rude &quot;youths&quot; (i.e. teenagers). You gotta love these guys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my favorite humorous parts in the Old Testament is when Elijah is baiting the priests of Baal. Of course, being the Old Testament, the passage gets pretty violent towards the end, but the beginning part is hilarious. Elijah keeps saying things like, &#8220;Maybe your god hasn&#8217;t come yet cause he&#8217;s chatting. Maybe he&#8217;s sleeping. Maybe he went on a trip.&#8221; You get the impression that, if it were a Greek story, Elijah would have gotten a lot more ribald. (And maybe he did and those parts were cut out!) </p>
<p>It also explains why Jezebel got so mad. Sure, he killed her priests, but he TAUNTED them first. </p>
<p>BTW, Elijah&#8217;s prodigy is Elisha who gets bears to maul the rude &#8220;youths&#8221; (i.e. teenagers). You gotta love these guys.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/comment-page-1/#comment-18696</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=352#comment-18696</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never thought of the scriptures as containing humor.  Thanks, you guys.

I would like to believe God has a sense of humor.

Funny books I&#039;ve read:  Marley the world&#039;s most terrible dog, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime, and The Last Juror all made me laugh out loud.  Also, the couple of chapters I read in Augesten Burroughs book (before the explicit gay sex parts)made me laugh out loud.  

I heard Chris Rock say once that black people are the hardest to make laugh.  It&#039;s got to be really funny before they laugh out loud.  That&#039;s me.  Attempts at humor, or books discussing humor are not funny.  Bright cheerful books (lots of LDS fiction)masquerade as humor, but are seldom really funny.

I&#039;m with the ancient Greeks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never thought of the scriptures as containing humor.  Thanks, you guys.</p>
<p>I would like to believe God has a sense of humor.</p>
<p>Funny books I&#8217;ve read:  Marley the world&#8217;s most terrible dog, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime, and The Last Juror all made me laugh out loud.  Also, the couple of chapters I read in Augesten Burroughs book (before the explicit gay sex parts)made me laugh out loud.  </p>
<p>I heard Chris Rock say once that black people are the hardest to make laugh.  It&#8217;s got to be really funny before they laugh out loud.  That&#8217;s me.  Attempts at humor, or books discussing humor are not funny.  Bright cheerful books (lots of LDS fiction)masquerade as humor, but are seldom really funny.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m with the ancient Greeks.</p>
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		<title>By: BC</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/comment-page-1/#comment-18128</link>
		<dc:creator>BC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2007 03:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=352#comment-18128</guid>
		<description>I always preferred Abraham&#039;s plainspoken opening to his account, which in retrospect is rather tongue-in-cheek:

&quot;In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence;&quot;

It initially reads like a &quot;ho-hum, time to move along&quot; statement, but then a few verses later you read about how the corrupt priests had nearly killed him, and his life was still in danger, and he had to get the hell out of Dodge in order to just breathe the next day. &quot;Needful&quot; to find a new place of &quot;residence&quot; indeed!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always preferred Abraham&#8217;s plainspoken opening to his account, which in retrospect is rather tongue-in-cheek:</p>
<p>&#8220;In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence;&#8221;</p>
<p>It initially reads like a &#8220;ho-hum, time to move along&#8221; statement, but then a few verses later you read about how the corrupt priests had nearly killed him, and his life was still in danger, and he had to get the hell out of Dodge in order to just breathe the next day. &#8220;Needful&#8221; to find a new place of &#8220;residence&#8221; indeed!</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/comment-page-1/#comment-18063</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 00:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=352#comment-18063</guid>
		<description>Tatiana, I personally believe that there is tons of humor in the Book of Mormon, though considering the book&#039;s purpose, I can&#039;t say that it&#039;s intentional.  My favorite example, however, is after Abinadi preaches to the people of King Noah and they try to kill him the first time, he takes a two year hiatus before returning.  Verse one of the twelfth chapter of Mosiah is hysterical to me.  Abinadi comes to the people in disguise so they won&#039;t recognize him and the first words out of his mouth are &quot;Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying--Abinadi!&quot;  That&#039;s our Abinadi.  Great prophet, not-so-great master of disguise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tatiana, I personally believe that there is tons of humor in the Book of Mormon, though considering the book&#8217;s purpose, I can&#8217;t say that it&#8217;s intentional.  My favorite example, however, is after Abinadi preaches to the people of King Noah and they try to kill him the first time, he takes a two year hiatus before returning.  Verse one of the twelfth chapter of Mosiah is hysterical to me.  Abinadi comes to the people in disguise so they won&#8217;t recognize him and the first words out of his mouth are &#8220;Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying&#8211;Abinadi!&#8221;  That&#8217;s our Abinadi.  Great prophet, not-so-great master of disguise.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Gough</title>
		<link>http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/guest-post-eugene-woodbury/comment-page-1/#comment-17987</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Gough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=352#comment-17987</guid>
		<description>Thank you Eugene, and William, for engaging so fully with my essay.

It was a pleasure reading your post, Eugene, and I found a lot to enjoy in the comments too.

We might have to agree to differ on the subject of comedy in the Bible (I tend to feel that we are capable of finding great humour in the Bible, but that the writers, too in awe of their great subject perhaps, didn&#039;t intentionally put the humour there).

I agree with you on the longing for &quot;wild men&quot;, the cultural need for &quot;wild men&quot;, in every generation, as the culture grows tired and craves renewal. (Art and culture, like everything else, follow an endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth.)

And I was fascinated by Kate&#039;s idea that US medical dramas were smuggling the Shakespearean fool back onto primetime TV. Because we need the characters who:

&quot;...say things other people don&#039;t admit/want to hear.&quot;

I love the sound of Eric Thompson&#039;s script too.

And I agree with R.W. Rasband about A Confederacy of Dunces, so funny and so heartbreaking...

Best of luck with the site, it&#039;s great,

-Julian Gough, Berlin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Eugene, and William, for engaging so fully with my essay.</p>
<p>It was a pleasure reading your post, Eugene, and I found a lot to enjoy in the comments too.</p>
<p>We might have to agree to differ on the subject of comedy in the Bible (I tend to feel that we are capable of finding great humour in the Bible, but that the writers, too in awe of their great subject perhaps, didn&#8217;t intentionally put the humour there).</p>
<p>I agree with you on the longing for &#8220;wild men&#8221;, the cultural need for &#8220;wild men&#8221;, in every generation, as the culture grows tired and craves renewal. (Art and culture, like everything else, follow an endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth.)</p>
<p>And I was fascinated by Kate&#8217;s idea that US medical dramas were smuggling the Shakespearean fool back onto primetime TV. Because we need the characters who:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;say things other people don&#8217;t admit/want to hear.&#8221;</p>
<p>I love the sound of Eric Thompson&#8217;s script too.</p>
<p>And I agree with R.W. Rasband about A Confederacy of Dunces, so funny and so heartbreaking&#8230;</p>
<p>Best of luck with the site, it&#8217;s great,</p>
<p>-Julian Gough, Berlin</p>
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