Comments on: All Is Well In Zion: Three Mormon Writers On Social and Corporate Darwinism, Part One http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/ Mormon Arts and Culture Thu, 09 Feb 2012 21:47:53 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: William Morris http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-29185 William Morris Sat, 13 Oct 2007 04:28:56 +0000 http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=360#comment-29185 The RSS feed isn\'t working? Sorry about that, Cory. I suppose I really should subscribe to the feed so I can monitor it. I\'ll see what I can do about fixing it. I was actually considering moving back to Feedburner anyway. The RSS feed isn\’t working? Sorry about that, Cory.

I suppose I really should subscribe to the feed so I can monitor it. I\’ll see what I can do about fixing it. I was actually considering moving back to Feedburner anyway.

]]> By: Cory Huff http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-29167 Cory Huff Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:03:59 +0000 http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=360#comment-29167 Hey Mahonri! Great post. I wish the RSS would work on Motley Vision, I don't read these posts nearly often enough. People should take a look at Rick Koerber's FreeCapitalist.com. Capitalism with the agenda of helping people. I like it. Hey Mahonri! Great post. I wish the RSS would work on Motley Vision, I don’t read these posts nearly often enough.

People should take a look at Rick Koerber’s FreeCapitalist.com. Capitalism with the agenda of helping people. I like it.

]]> By: Mahonri Stewart http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-28313 Mahonri Stewart Wed, 03 Oct 2007 00:28:42 +0000 http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=360#comment-28313 By the way, for those who think I'm just a liberal going off on his platform, I actually consider myself to be a moderate conservative. I even voted for Bush. Go figure. By the way, for those who think I’m just a liberal going off on his platform, I actually consider myself to be a moderate conservative. I even voted for Bush. Go figure.

]]> By: Mahonri Stewart http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-27383 Mahonri Stewart Fri, 21 Sep 2007 03:27:52 +0000 http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=360#comment-27383 Jay, You said "layoffs are a good thing." That is a pretty broad statement. I can maybe buy that "layoffs are *sometimes* a good thing." But to put on such a blanket statement is pretty big assumption. Eric never says "layoffs are a bad thing." He defines the circumstances of the particular layoff he's analyzing (where the company was still profitable, the reasons for instigating them self serving to small group of people and the number of layoffs in the thousands)-- and he condemns that particular scenario. Obviously, there are times when a company, to survive, will have to make some changes. But when those changes are reckless, unnecessary and motivated by selfishness, then I take issue with that. Business ethics and human ethics should not be separated. I feel that it is ironic that the tone of your reply seems to very similar to that of many of *Gadianton's* characters-- taking the livelihood of human beings and distancing yourself from them. You compare it to very logical, dispassionate, theoretical metaphors (such as your washing machine), and yet never analyze the very human, very immediate and very real consequences of purely "business" decisions. My father has been in high business positions, my brother Jared is currently a very successful businessman- and from what I've seen, they do their business honestly and care about the people they have employed. They take their business seriously not only on a corporate level, but also on a moral level. They take in account the human factor when they make decisions. There are many honest and ethical business people and many honest and ethical business practices. But there are also unethical and harmful ways of doing business. It is those sorts of practices that Eric criticizes. Jay,
You said “layoffs are a good thing.” That is a pretty broad statement. I can maybe buy that “layoffs are *sometimes* a good thing.” But to put on such a blanket statement is pretty big assumption. Eric never says “layoffs are a bad thing.” He defines the circumstances of the particular layoff he’s analyzing (where the company was still profitable, the reasons for instigating them self serving to small group of people and the number of layoffs in the thousands)– and he condemns that particular scenario. Obviously, there are times when a company, to survive, will have to make some changes. But when those changes are reckless, unnecessary and motivated by selfishness, then I take issue with that. Business ethics and human ethics should not be separated.
I feel that it is ironic that the tone of your reply seems to very similar to that of many of *Gadianton’s* characters– taking the livelihood of human beings and distancing yourself from them. You compare it to very logical, dispassionate, theoretical metaphors (such as your washing machine), and yet never analyze the very human, very immediate and very real consequences of purely “business” decisions.
My father has been in high business positions, my brother Jared is currently a very successful businessman- and from what I’ve seen, they do their business honestly and care about the people they have employed. They take their business seriously not only on a corporate level, but also on a moral level. They take in account the human factor when they make decisions. There are many honest and ethical business people and many honest and ethical business practices. But there are also unethical and harmful ways of doing business. It is those sorts of practices that Eric criticizes.

]]> By: Jay McCarthy http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-27362 Jay McCarthy Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:16:04 +0000 http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=360#comment-27362 I agree about the spirit of pride and Rameumpton-itis that is prevailing among the saints. However, I take issue with the complaint against business and, in particular, layoffs. A business can only make profits by two means. The first, is to do what their customers want them to do, upon doing they will receive payment. The second, is to coax government to rob people and give it to the business. However, this second method is a problem of government, not of business. Layoffs are a good thing. They are instances that we can do more, or the same, with less. When you buy a washing machine or dish washer, you wouldn't sit around as family worrying about the time you've "layed-off" of your normal schedule by no longer requiring a person to wash dishes. Any business layoff is similar and truly is "right-sizing." Jay I agree about the spirit of pride and Rameumpton-itis that is prevailing among the saints. However, I take issue with the complaint against business and, in particular, layoffs.

A business can only make profits by two means. The first, is to do what their customers want them to do, upon doing they will receive payment. The second, is to coax government to rob people and give it to the business. However, this second method is a problem of government, not of business.

Layoffs are a good thing. They are instances that we can do more, or the same, with less. When you buy a washing machine or dish washer, you wouldn’t sit around as family worrying about the time you’ve “layed-off” of your normal schedule by no longer requiring a person to wash dishes. Any business layoff is similar and truly is “right-sizing.”

Jay

]]> By: Stephen M (Ethesis) http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-27155 Stephen M (Ethesis) Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:55:07 +0000 http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=360#comment-27155 I need to write a better and longer essay on neo-Calvinism, especially with the nuances, such as celebrity status vs. wealth (it is interesting to see the two compete, or merge). It is really fascinating. It contrasts nicely with C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce where he points out that poverty qua poverty is not virtue either. I need to write a better and longer essay on neo-Calvinism, especially with the nuances, such as celebrity status vs. wealth (it is interesting to see the two compete, or merge).

It is really fascinating.

It contrasts nicely with C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce where he points out that poverty qua poverty is not virtue either.

]]> By: Mahonri Stewart http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-27139 Mahonri Stewart Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:58:47 +0000 http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=360#comment-27139 Agreed, Pooka. I've seen pride from all areas (most painfully, I've found it too often in myself), but often its tougher to take on the pride from above since it has more influence in the world. But I love President Benson's talk. And neither set of pride should be allowed to canker our souls, from above or beneath. And I agree with you as well Carlos-- the people in question in my essay from my ward were great folks. I hope the essay doesn't come across as too judgmental, as I come from a more well to do family myself (depending on your definition of the word, I guess. Upper middle class is where I think where most people would have put my parents). Agreed, Pooka. I’ve seen pride from all areas (most painfully, I’ve found it too often in myself), but often its tougher to take on the pride from above since it has more influence in the world. But I love President Benson’s talk. And neither set of pride should be allowed to canker our souls, from above or beneath.
And I agree with you as well Carlos– the people in question in my essay from my ward were great folks. I hope the essay doesn’t come across as too judgmental, as I come from a more well to do family myself (depending on your definition of the word, I guess. Upper middle class is where I think where most people would have put my parents).

]]> By: Carlos http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-27138 Carlos Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:39:25 +0000 http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=360#comment-27138 Bro. Nibley talks in one of his books about how he gave an assignment to his students to write a paper about which person in the BOM they were most like. A studen, to his credit, wrote that it was Gadianton, because he was seeking for gain. I wish I remembered what book it was, and which page. I live in a very wealthy ward right now in AZ. Most of the members are great. I don't know if they would really consacrate, some are attached to their wealth, some others are very christlike. I hope I always will be willing to. It's easier now that I'm poor. We shoudn't judge too hard. Bro. Nibley talks in one of his books about how he gave an assignment to his students to write a paper about which person in the BOM they were most like. A studen, to his credit, wrote that it was Gadianton, because he was seeking for gain. I wish I remembered what book it was, and which page.

I live in a very wealthy ward right now in AZ. Most of the members are great. I don’t know if they would really consacrate, some are attached to their wealth, some others are very christlike. I hope I always will be willing to. It’s easier now that I’m poor. We shoudn’t judge too hard.

]]> By: pooka http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-27135 pooka Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:18:21 +0000 http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=360#comment-27135 Pride can take many forms, including in Pres. Benson's landmark addresses on the subject, pride from underneath. Pride can take many forms, including in Pres. Benson’s landmark addresses on the subject, pride from underneath.

]]> By: Clark http://www.motleyvision.org/2007/all-is-well-in-zion-three-mormon-writers-on-social-and-corporate-darwinism-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-27127 Clark Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:01:52 +0000 http://www.motleyvision.org/?p=360#comment-27127 One thing that always bugs me about these artistic critiques of business is how contrived they always seem. There's a lot of real things to critique in business but, for example, this issue of the employees doesn't seem one of them. I had a big response written and then accidently lost it before I could post it here. I do agree with Stephen though that there is a kind of neo-Calvinism (although I'm not sure that's entirely fair to the real Calvinists, since their doctrine is a tad more nuanced) But there is a real Rameumpton like spirit at times along the Wasatch where riches are a sign of righteousness. Which is funny considering how many condemn it. One thing that always bugs me about these artistic critiques of business is how contrived they always seem. There’s a lot of real things to critique in business but, for example, this issue of the employees doesn’t seem one of them.

I had a big response written and then accidently lost it before I could post it here.

I do agree with Stephen though that there is a kind of neo-Calvinism (although I’m not sure that’s entirely fair to the real Calvinists, since their doctrine is a tad more nuanced) But there is a real Rameumpton like spirit at times along the Wasatch where riches are a sign of righteousness. Which is funny considering how many condemn it.

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